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Post by govols85 on Jul 27, 2022 17:03:28 GMT -5
Yep. I tend to think O'Neill's recruiting impact is overrated, but SPD now has me wondering if I'm biased against O'Neill on that. In any event it doesn't matter, because Bald Kevin got worse as he went along.
By year three, a coach's team is his own, and O'Neill's year three was abysmal. Only the 5-22 season is even in the same ballpark. How bad?
(1) The Vols lost 13 games by double digits . . . one more than the 5-22 season. (2) They lost 6 games by 20+. . . three times as many as the 5-22 team. (3) The Vols scored 50 or fewer points in 7 games. For comparison, Cuonzo Martin had 9 50-or-fewer games in his entire three-year tenure. Cuonzo Martin, ya'll! (4) Overall, Bald Kevin had 20 50-or-fewer games in three years. For comparison, the Vols have had approximately 50 games with 50-or-fewer points in the entire shot-clock era . . . spanning 37 years! O'Neill managed to get 40% of that total in only 83 games. How is that possible?
And he was even worse and Northwestern and USC. Really.
Even if we were to assume a Marvel-style multiverse of infinite possibilities, I could not conceive of any universe in which Tony Harris could have succeeded in Bald Kevin's system. I don't have that much imagination.
I have always put Wade Houston as UT's worst coach ever, with BK1 behind him. But I have been convinced to reverse that order too. As a younger guy during the Houston era, I could not conceive how you could only win 5 games, considering you played more than that number against teams that were supposed to be creampuffs. And make no mistake, that team was bad. But I recall going back through the game by game results of that season a few years ago and being surprised to see how many of our SEC games were actually pretty competitive based on the scores. That was not the case under BK1. I recall watching BK's teams struggle to even inbound the ball, over and over again. The team was truly inept. Kevin was really bad to berate some of his players. Really bad. |
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Post by awinatl on Jul 27, 2022 17:24:26 GMT -5
WTH are you guys talking about ?? The shape O’Neill left the BB program is 60,000 x better than what Wade Houston left it in. Wade Houston is EASILY one of the worst college basketball coaches EVER …. Not just TN but ANYWHERE
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Post by pdlglm on Jul 27, 2022 17:28:33 GMT -5
WTH are you guys talking about ?? The shape O’Neill left the BB program is 60,000 x better than what Wade Houston left it in. Wade Houston is EASILY one of the worst college basketball coaches EVER …. Not just TN but ANYWHERE Not false. But o'Neill's actual results were putrid. |
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Post by pdlglm on Jul 28, 2022 8:58:20 GMT -5
A little more consideration and I think that you can make an argument that Don DeVoe and Cuonzo Martin are basically the same guy... just different eras in regard to coach expectations and Martin had the misfortune to follow the Vols best basketball coach ever.
Neither had great records against the top 25 and both got most of their top 25 wins against teams outside the top 10. Overall winning percentage, home, away and neutral site records and SECT results basically the same. Martin has the better SEC record in a smaller sample size. Defense first guys. Not great with marketing the program but reported to be generally likeable human beings.
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Post by wtmvol on Jul 28, 2022 10:58:32 GMT -5
A little more consideration and I think that you can make an argument that Don DeVoe and Cuonzo Martin are basically the same guy... just different eras in regard to coach expectations and Martin had the misfortune to follow the Vols best basketball coach ever. Neither had great records against the top 25 and both got most of their top 25 wins against teams outside the top 10. Overall winning percentage, home, away and neutral site records and SECT results basically the same. Martin has the better SEC record in a smaller sample size. Defense first guys. Not great with marketing the program but reported to be generally likeable human beings. Did DeVoe ever screw over your restaurant buddy like Cuonzo did? |
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Post by Stopspopsdrops83 on Jul 28, 2022 11:40:55 GMT -5
A little more consideration and I think that you can make an argument that Don DeVoe and Cuonzo Martin are basically the same guy... just different eras in regard to coach expectations and Martin had the misfortune to follow the Vols best basketball coach ever. Neither had great records against the top 25 and both got most of their top 25 wins against teams outside the top 10. Overall winning percentage, home, away and neutral site records and SECT results basically the same. Martin has the better SEC record in a smaller sample size. Defense first guys. Not great with marketing the program but reported to be generally likeable human beings. As much as I analyze all things UT BB I have never given this OP a single thought but definitely similarities. I just will always believe Devoe to be the better coach, not really close in my mind. The first thing that comes to my mind with Devoe has always been “The game passed him by and he could just never catch up, well he did somewhat at Navy” with Martin the first thing that comes to my mind is “Score the ball”. That pretty much sums it up for me |
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Post by contextmatters on Jul 28, 2022 12:11:08 GMT -5
A little more consideration and I think that you can make an argument that Don DeVoe and Cuonzo Martin are basically the same guy... just different eras in regard to coach expectations and Martin had the misfortune to follow the Vols best basketball coach ever. Neither had great records against the top 25 and both got most of their top 25 wins against teams outside the top 10. Overall winning percentage, home, away and neutral site records and SECT results basically the same. Martin has the better SEC record in a smaller sample size. Defense first guys. Not great with marketing the program but reported to be generally likeable human beings. As much as I analyze all things UT BB I have never given this OP a single thought but definitely similarities. I just will always believe Devoe to be the better coach, not really close in my mind. The first thing that comes to my mind with Devoe has always been “The game passed him by and he could just never catch up, well he did somewhat at Navy” with Martin the first thing that comes to my mind is “Score the ball”. That pretty much sums it up for me Based on the stats, I actually think Devoe caught up during his last year at Tennessee, but it was too late to change anyone's mind about him. That last year: (1) the Vols were second in the SEC in scoring, behind only the Chris Jackson LSU team; (2) had the third-highest scoring average in team history (highest among teams without Ernie and Bernie); (3) played at the second highest pace in the SEC[1]; and
(4) led the SEC by a huge margin in three point attempts--19 per game, which was over 4 more than the next highest SEC team and over 6 more than the national average.
Basically, DeVoe turned into Nate Oats that last year.
[1] I think. There were no published numbers for that back then, so I had to do a back-of-the-envelope guess at possessions, but I'm fairly confident that's right.
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Post by cherokee04 on Jul 28, 2022 12:17:59 GMT -5
A little more consideration and I think that you can make an argument that Don DeVoe and Cuonzo Martin are basically the same guy... just different eras in regard to coach expectations and Martin had the misfortune to follow the Vols best basketball coach ever. Neither had great records against the top 25 and both got most of their top 25 wins against teams outside the top 10. Overall winning percentage, home, away and neutral site records and SECT results basically the same. Martin has the better SEC record in a smaller sample size. Defense first guys. Not great with marketing the program but reported to be generally likeable human beings. I think DeVoe's UT career has to be looked at in two distinct segments though, and CCM's only lasted three years, so it's a tough comparison to make. DeVoe took UT to five straight NCAAT's. I think at that time, there were only a very small number of other teams that had been to five consecutive tourneys. It seems like Louisville stands out as one of them. Meanwhile, CCM squeaked into one tourney, and in his years since then at both Cal and Mizzou he has really been mediocre at best. DeVoe could not adjust to the changing game though, or in reference to context's point, at least not in time to keep his job at UT. Had we not been blown out by West Virginia in the NCAAT that season, maybe DD would have been given a bit more time. I wonder how things might have been different? Maybe not much, but maybe it would have been a massive change. |
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Post by Stopspopsdrops83 on Jul 28, 2022 12:50:39 GMT -5
As much as I analyze all things UT BB I have never given this OP a single thought but definitely similarities. I just will always believe Devoe to be the better coach, not really close in my mind. The first thing that comes to my mind with Devoe has always been “The game passed him by and he could just never catch up, well he did somewhat at Navy” with Martin the first thing that comes to my mind is “Score the ball”. That pretty much sums it up for me Based on the stats, I actually think Devoe caught up during his last year at Tennessee, but it was too late to change anyone's mind about him. That last year: (1) the Vols were second in the SEC in scoring, behind only the Chris Jackson LSU team; (2) had the third-highest scoring average in team history (highest among teams without Ernie and Bernie); (3) played at the second highest pace in the SEC[1]; and
(4) led the SEC by a huge margin in three point attempts--19 per game, which was over 4 more than the next highest SEC team and over 6 more than the national average.
Basically, DeVoe turned into Nate Oats that last year.
[1] I think. There were no published numbers for that back then, so I had to do a back-of-the-envelope guess at possessions, but I'm fairly confident that's right.
Glad I’m not much of a gambler, I would have lost everything on those stats. Really hard to comprehend and I’ll guarantee I watched or listened to 90% of the minutes UT played that season. We had been down for a few years and that year was suppose to be ours plus the SEC tournament was in the new TBA. Over the years all that stands out now is the loss in the SEC tournament to Florida on our home floor, don’t even remember the NCAA tournament |
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Post by pdlglm on Jul 28, 2022 15:37:20 GMT -5
At the risk of arguing against my own premise (I am a lawyer after all), I do agree that the comparison is unfair given the length of DeVoe's tenure and also that he dealt with major rule changes in as the shot clock and three point line were both introduced. DeVoe was fantastic for the first 5 seasons - much, much better than Martin. I think for the way the game was played back in the late 70s that he was a pretty good coach.
But when things went south, they really went south. The year the shot clock was introduced we went from 22-15 the previous year to 12-16. Went sub .500 again the next year with the three point line coming into the game.
And that 88-89 year was similar to 13-14 in that the team waaay under performed expectations of the fan base. Nix and Roth were seniors as was Mark Griffin who shot 43% from three, and they started out 11-1 (4-0) before dropping their first game against a ranked opponent (@ #14 FSU). They lost at home to a bad Georgia team, got swept by a bad TWWNBN team and then lost a home game to Florida in the SECT. The league was down as only 1 SEC school was ranked in the final AP poll (the Vols were ranked for 8 weeks during the season though).
So I think he was probably a better coach until the game changed on him, but when it did change he was bad enough to be as bad as Martin. And Martin does have the one good NCAAT run.
If we want to start speculating, and we most certainly do because this is a message board, I think if Martin had hung around for a couple more years that his record would be worse than DeVoe's - but as it is they are pretty comparable.
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Post by cherokee04 on Jul 28, 2022 17:07:39 GMT -5
At the risk of arguing against my own premise (I am a lawyer after all), I do agree that the comparison is unfair given the length of DeVoe's tenure and also that he dealt with major rule changes in as the shot clock and three point line were both introduced. DeVoe was fantastic for the first 5 seasons - much, much better than Martin. I think for the way the game was played back in the late 70s that he was a pretty good coach. But when things went south, they really went south. The year the shot clock was introduced we went from 22-15 the previous year to 12-16. Went sub .500 again the next year with the three point line coming into the game. And that 88-89 year was similar to 13-14 in that the team waaay under performed expectations of the fan base. Nix and Roth were seniors as was Mark Griffin who shot 43% from three, and they started out 11-1 (4-0) before dropping their first game against a ranked opponent (@ #14 FSU). They lost at home to a bad Georgia team, got swept by a bad TWWNBN team and then lost a home game to Florida in the SECT. The league was down as only 1 SEC school was ranked in the final AP poll (the Vols were ranked for 8 weeks during the season though). So I think he was probably a better coach until the game changed on him, but when it did change he was bad enough to be as bad as Martin. And Martin does have the one good NCAAT run. If we want to start speculating, and we most certainly do because this is a message board, I think if Martin had hung around for a couple more years that his record would be worse than DeVoe's - but as it is they are pretty comparable. Yeah, I am pretty much on board with this. To add to the critique of DeVoe, if my memory is reliable, I think that in the years leading up to the change there was enough of a push for it that many other coaches were more prepared for the difference. It wasn't sprung on coaches out of nowhere, so DeVoe's lack of preparedness for it is a strike against him rather than something that should be used to mitigate his degraded results after the change was made. |
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Post by govols85 on Jul 28, 2022 18:24:08 GMT -5
At the risk of arguing against my own premise (I am a lawyer after all), I do agree that the comparison is unfair given the length of DeVoe's tenure and also that he dealt with major rule changes in as the shot clock and three point line were both introduced. DeVoe was fantastic for the first 5 seasons - much, much better than Martin. I think for the way the game was played back in the late 70s that he was a pretty good coach. But when things went south, they really went south. The year the shot clock was introduced we went from 22-15 the previous year to 12-16. Went sub .500 again the next year with the three point line coming into the game. And that 88-89 year was similar to 13-14 in that the team waaay under performed expectations of the fan base. Nix and Roth were seniors as was Mark Griffin who shot 43% from three, and they started out 11-1 (4-0) before dropping their first game against a ranked opponent (@ #14 FSU). They lost at home to a bad Georgia team, got swept by a bad TWWNBN team and then lost a home game to Florida in the SECT. The league was down as only 1 SEC school was ranked in the final AP poll (the Vols were ranked for 8 weeks during the season though). So I think he was probably a better coach until the game changed on him, but when it did change he was bad enough to be as bad as Martin. And Martin does have the one good NCAAT run. If we want to start speculating, and we most certainly do because this is a message board, I think if Martin had hung around for a couple more years that his record would be worse than DeVoe's - but as it is they are pretty comparable. To your point on Martin, I’m in agreement and thought that if he ever stayed somewhere longer than three years that he’d be exposed. He was dealt a tough hand here by the fans, not because who he was, but because of who he followed. At the same time, he got his revenge and poisoned the incoming class that he recruited. I certainly enjoyed every time that the Vols defeated one of his Tiger teams. Even though he left as he did, it’s worked out well in the long run for Tennessee. Barnes is certainly amongst the top 3 UT men’s basketball coaches. |
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Post by pdlglm on Jul 28, 2022 18:42:13 GMT -5
If Turner doesnt get called for that 'foul' then we probably have folks who would argue that Deacon is on par with Bruce.
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Post by cherokee04 on Jul 28, 2022 19:30:55 GMT -5
If Turner doesnt get called for that 'foul' then we probably have folks who would argue that Deacon is on par with Bruce. That certainly would have gotten us back to the Elite Eight, with a legit shot at making the FF. CRB and CBP go about their jobs in different ways, but get pretty similar results. I think one thing that also skews our minds toward Pearl having an edge is that he has fared pretty well against UT once he got past his first couple of building years at Auburn. But yeah, one cheap foul call and we might see the two of them next to each other a little differently. |
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Post by Stopspopsdrops83 on Jul 28, 2022 20:36:50 GMT -5
At the risk of arguing against my own premise (I am a lawyer after all), I do agree that the comparison is unfair given the length of DeVoe's tenure and also that he dealt with major rule changes in as the shot clock and three point line were both introduced. DeVoe was fantastic for the first 5 seasons - much, much better than Martin. I think for the way the game was played back in the late 70s that he was a pretty good coach. But when things went south, they really went south. The year the shot clock was introduced we went from 22-15 the previous year to 12-16. Went sub .500 again the next year with the three point line coming into the game. And that 88-89 year was similar to 13-14 in that the team waaay under performed expectations of the fan base. Nix and Roth were seniors as was Mark Griffin who shot 43% from three, and they started out 11-1 (4-0) before dropping their first game against a ranked opponent (@ #14 FSU). They lost at home to a bad Georgia team, got swept by a bad TWWNBN team and then lost a home game to Florida in the SECT. The league was down as only 1 SEC school was ranked in the final AP poll (the Vols were ranked for 8 weeks during the season though). So I think he was probably a better coach until the game changed on him, but when it did change he was bad enough to be as bad as Martin. And Martin does have the one good NCAAT run. If we want to start speculating, and we most certainly do because this is a message board, I think if Martin had hung around for a couple more years that his record would be worse than DeVoe's - but as it is they are pretty comparable. Yeah, I am pretty much on board with this. To add to the critique of DeVoe, if my memory is reliable, I think that in the years leading up to the change there was enough of a push for it that many other coaches were more prepared for the difference. It wasn't sprung on coaches out of nowhere, so DeVoe's lack of preparedness for it is a strike against him rather than something that should be used to mitigate his degraded results after the change was made. Yeah but don’t forget Devoe for all practical purposes was a Bobby Knight protege, he just didn’t want change or to change himself. He fought as long as he could, next was Navy |
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