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Post by pdlglm on Jul 7, 2020 10:15:40 GMT -5
Fansided click bait discussing 247 top 25 linkRTI article on Jahmai Mashack linkFulk surprise for 5 year old.... linkJordan Bowden working on NBA dream.... link
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Post by afvolunteer on Jul 7, 2020 11:30:36 GMT -5
That article on Mashack was interesting in seeing how the number of offers Barnes has given out has dwindled over his time here thus far. Not a surprise, but not something Iāve really thought about...his ability to be more and more selective as heās built up the program since his arrival.
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Post by pdlglm on Jul 7, 2020 11:32:53 GMT -5
That article on Mashack was interesting in seeing how the number of offers Barnes has given out has dwindled over his time here thus far. Not a surprise, but not something Iāve really thought about...his ability to be more and more selective as heās built up the program since his arrival. it was interesting to hear that coming from the kid as well.
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Post by afvolunteer on Jul 20, 2020 15:29:46 GMT -5
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Post by afvolunteer on Jul 20, 2020 15:44:47 GMT -5
So I just read up on this kid a little as I didnāt know much about him. This guy has āBarnes recruitā written all over him. Perusing through his twitter profile, heās clearly a very humble and mature kid. In one of his latest tweets he talked about how much respect he has for coaches who have to try and recruit during these restrictions. Said itās tough on him not knowing if he can take visits, but must be worse for coaches as āonly so many Zooms you can do.ā He just seems to have a bit of a different perspective than lots of high major kids, but trends the same as most of this staffās recent players. Apparently he was sickly as a kid and was a late bloomer that has an insane work ethic and loves to play defense. 3 years ago, Iād guess weād be all over this guy and the only reason weāve not yet put on a full court press is due to the crazy recruiting waters weāre fishing in. But heās still a Top-50ish recruit and seems to check all the Barnes boxes. Hereās a article discussing a little bit about him: www.pe.com/etiwanda-basketballs-jahmai-mashack-thrives-despite-heartbreak-setbacks
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Post by wtmvol on Jul 20, 2020 16:50:18 GMT -5
How about Mashack, Chandler, Banchero, and Smith? I guess that would be acceptable.
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Post by pdlglm on Jul 20, 2020 17:16:05 GMT -5
absolute love to have this kid. Kind of guy who, if he can hack the work you have to put in, would be a tremendous player by his junior year.
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Post by afvolunteer on Jul 20, 2020 21:45:11 GMT -5
absolute love to have this kid. Kind of guy who, if he can hack the work you have to put in, would be a tremendous player by his junior year. He's clearly a devout Christian whose faith is very important to him, and then there's this quote from Rivals' Corey Evans "He has a mid-range jumper; heās all about team; he loves to play defense." I mean can you get any more Rick Barnes recruit than this kid!?
So for anyone that read the article I linked, his grandmother passed away from COVID a few months back and he was clearly close to her. But his other grandmother lives in Atlanta, and every time there's a tweet about his TN offer or his virtual visit to TN or anything of the like, she always retweets it with some sort of comment like "that's close to us!!" or "TN is close to grandma, just sayin."
Like you pdl, I really like this kid. Seems like an incredible person with a rare maturity for his age and the type of work ethic that Barnes demands. Would love to add him.
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Post by knoxkid on Jul 29, 2020 18:28:20 GMT -5
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Post by cherokee04 on Jul 29, 2020 18:34:10 GMT -5
absolute love to have this kid. Kind of guy who, if he can hack the work you have to put in, would be a tremendous player by his junior year. He's clearly a devout Christian whose faith is very important to him, and then there's this quote from Rivals' Corey Evans "He has a mid-range jumper; heās all about team; he loves to play defense." I mean can you get any more Rick Barnes recruit than this kid!?
So for anyone that read the article I linked, his grandmother passed away from COVID a few months back and he was clearly close to her. But his other grandmother lives in Atlanta, and every time there's a tweet about his TN offer or his virtual visit to TN or anything of the like, she always retweets it with some sort of comment like "that's close to us!!" or "TN is close to grandma, just sayin."
Like you pdl, I really like this kid. Seems like an incredible person with a rare maturity for his age and the type of work ethic that Barnes demands. Would love to add him.
I feel the same - excited about this kid. So I have to ask this only because I've seen y'all discuss this here: when I see "mid-range jumper", I think about the discussion about how that is not really the shot we want to be taking. I don't recall how the numbers show this, but it sounds like we want to get it down low or shoot the 3, and the 12-15 foot jumper (I'm throwing those numbers out to represent "mid range" in my mind) is not the shot we want to take, even though we schemed to get the ball to Bowden off those little curls in roughly that range, maybe to boost his confidence. I hear mid-range jumper on a big man and I get excited. So is the difference that this is a guard? And why does that change whether it's a good shot or not? Or am I misunderstanding the discussion about that shot?
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Post by afvolunteer on Jul 29, 2020 23:18:41 GMT -5
I feel the same - excited about this kid. So I have to ask this only because I've seen y'all discuss this here: when I see "mid-range jumper", I think about the discussion about how that is not really the shot we want to be taking. I don't recall how the numbers show this, but it sounds like we want to get it down low or shoot the 3, and the 12-15 foot jumper (I'm throwing those numbers out to represent "mid range" in my mind) is not the shot we want to take, even though we schemed to get the ball to Bowden off those little curls in roughly that range, maybe to boost his confidence. I hear mid-range jumper on a big man and I get excited. So is the difference that this is a guard? And why does that change whether it's a good shot or not? Or am I misunderstanding the discussion about that shot? Cherokee, itās a great question and probably worth a separate thread. But in a nutshell, think of it as just a pure math problem and leave players out of it for now. I lied. Letās look at Vescovi last year. He was a 36% 3 point shooter, so on average, every time he attempted a 3 point shot, that equated to 1.08 points (36% x 3 points). He shot 2ās at a 39.1% clip, thus .782 points per attempt. So weād want him taking more 3s than 2s in general. The kicker on the 2 point % though is that number is a mix of his layups, dunks (can Vescovi dunk?!) and jump shots. The data isnāt readily available, but we know most everyone is better at layups and dunks than jump shots so 3ās are even MORE valuable when put into that context. Last year, Vescovi made 51.3% of his shots at the rim, which would be 1.026 points per attempt. Whatās left are free throws and ājump shots.ā An 82% free throw shooter, he earned .82 points per shot attempt at the line, and then the dreaded jump shot he only shot at a 23.3% rate, which equals .47 points per attempt. Santiās numbers track similarly across most players. Getting to the line is typically best, because while his .82 points per attempt is less valuable than a 3 at a glance, if weāre in the double bonus or he makes the first one, you get to double that shot attempt so a 1.6 points per trip is insanely efficient (and far and away the best point value in the game for most players). Next best is shooting 3s for him, 1.08 pts per attempt. Then shots at the rim 1.03, than far and away the worst is 2 point jump shots...only .47 points per attempt. You can see that not only is it the worst expected point value, but itās orders of magnitude worse. So thatās why the analytics say the mid range 2 is the worst shot in the game and why itās often mentioned as such. Itās just the least valuable shot. But thatās obviously a gross oversimplification as not all 2 point shots, even jumpers, are created equal. If itās uncontested, that % likely goes up (to your point, think a big man drifting out that can hit that shot). Or for a great midrange shooter, it can be ok. Even Bowden, who we often whined about scheming to get a mid range shot, was honestly a great 2 point jump shooter in his own right (he shot 47% from 2 last year, and oddly was at that same clip whether at the rim or shooting mid range). So his true jump shot value last year was 47%x2 or .94 points per attempt. Not nearly as good as Santi or JJJ or Pons shooting a 3, not in the same planet as Fulky shooting near the rim, but better than most guys at jump shooting. So thatās the logic behind it. Mid-range isnāt really defined in the context of how most refer to it with analytics, and we could analyze different ranges for different players, but in general the farther from the rim, the lower the shot % goes down, so the worse the value of that shot is. At least right up until you cross the 3 point line when the value jumps a ton because even with the much lower %, that 1 added point more than makes up for the extra misses (for a decent shooter). I think Bowden never missed in practice, and Barnes used to run stuff for him just to try to ignite that āshooterā in him, get the ball to go through the net kind of thing. Confidence, like you said. Plus he was a good enough shooter anyway that there wasnāt a ton of value drop off, some yes, but apparently acceptable. Also with a big man, heās much more likely to be open when shooting a midrange shot, so if that increases his shot % enough, then it may make it a more valuable shot, but most likely just a less bad shot. Big coming out too can often draw the other teamās best rebounder out, so thereās lots of hidden value added with a big that can make that shot consistently that might not correlate to a guard. Not lost in all this is while Iām as numbers driven and nerdy as anyone, you canāt just play the game on paper. Launching 3s, getting dunks, and shooting free throws would be the optimal way to score, but opposing team defense will probably try to force you into a jump shot anyway. Scheming and quite often watching plays obviously designed with the end result of having one of our players shoot a mid range jumper is what drove me and I think pdl and some others crazy at times. The thought that if we do everything right on this play, the desired outcome is weāll have given ourselves one of the least valuable shots...that was the hang up. Usually, if youāre a guard and can shoot good mid-range, taking a 3 is the better shot. Bowden was so bad at 3ās last year, that actually wasnāt the case (.86 point value for 3 point attempt vs. .94 for a jump shot). It sort of aligns with Barnesā defensive philosophy. Collapse the paint and take away any of those high % near-rim 2 point shots, and force teams into jump shots (or 3s, which is the part that doesnāt really align). There seems to be no rhyme or reason to Barnesā historical 3 point D (sometimes good, sometimes bad), but his teams are always, always, always good at 2 point d, and Iām sure this is why. Kim English actually tweeted last week or so about the strategy of trying to lure opponents with bad 3 point shooters into taking open 3s, but thatās hard to keep track of for college students I think. But that would be THE optimal d strategy....defend without fouling, make the opponent take 3ās only with their bad shooters, and then force them into mid range jump shots. Spurs won a ton of championships with that strategy. Sorry for the long rant. Might not be exactly what you were asking, but this is sort of the history behind the disappearance of the mid range game.
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Post by afvolunteer on Jul 29, 2020 23:30:36 GMT -5
Thanks for linking that. Listening to how our staff researched and approached the virtual visit was impressive, regardless of where he ends up. I think weāve definitely given ourselves a chance.
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Post by cherokee04 on Jul 30, 2020 8:06:55 GMT -5
I feel the same - excited about this kid. So I have to ask this only because I've seen y'all discuss this here: when I see "mid-range jumper", I think about the discussion about how that is not really the shot we want to be taking. I don't recall how the numbers show this, but it sounds like we want to get it down low or shoot the 3, and the 12-15 foot jumper (I'm throwing those numbers out to represent "mid range" in my mind) is not the shot we want to take, even though we schemed to get the ball to Bowden off those little curls in roughly that range, maybe to boost his confidence. I hear mid-range jumper on a big man and I get excited. So is the difference that this is a guard? And why does that change whether it's a good shot or not? Or am I misunderstanding the discussion about that shot? Cherokee, itās a great question and probably worth a separate thread. But in a nutshell, think of it as just a pure math problem and leave players out of it for now. I lied. Letās look at Vescovi last year. He was a 36% 3 point shooter, so on average, every time he attempted a 3 point shot, that equated to 1.08 points (36% x 3 points). He shot 2ās at a 39.1% clip, thus .782 points per attempt. So weād want him taking more 3s than 2s in general. The kicker on the 2 point % though is that number is a mix of his layups, dunks (can Vescovi dunk?!) and jump shots. The data isnāt readily available, but we know most everyone is better at layups and dunks than jump shots so 3ās are even MORE valuable when put into that context. Last year, Vescovi made 51.3% of his shots at the rim, which would be 1.026 points per attempt. Whatās left are free throws and ājump shots.ā An 82% free throw shooter, he earned .82 points per shot attempt at the line, and then the dreaded jump shot he only shot at a 23.3% rate, which equals .47 points per attempt. Santiās numbers track similarly across most players. Getting to the line is typically best, because while his .82 points per attempt is less valuable than a 3 at a glance, if weāre in the double bonus or he makes the first one, you get to double that shot attempt so a 1.6 points per trip is insanely efficient (and far and away the best point value in the game for most players). Next best is shooting 3s for him, 1.08 pts per attempt. Then shots at the rim 1.03, than far and away the worst is 2 point jump shots...only .47 points per attempt. You can see that not only is it the worst expected point value, but itās orders of magnitude worse. So thatās why the analytics say the mid range 2 is the worst shot in the game and why itās often mentioned as such. Itās just the least valuable shot. But thatās obviously a gross oversimplification as not all 2 point shots, even jumpers, are created equal. If itās uncontested, that % likely goes up (to your point, think a big man drifting out that can hit that shot). Or for a great midrange shooter, it can be ok. Even Bowden, who we often whined about scheming to get a mid range shot, was honestly a great 2 point jump shooter in his own right (he shot 47% from 2 last year, and oddly was at that same clip whether at the rim or shooting mid range). So his true jump shot value last year was 47%x2 or .94 points per attempt. Not nearly as good as Santi or JJJ or Pons shooting a 3, not in the same planet as Fulky shooting near the rim, but better than most guys at jump shooting. So thatās the logic behind it. Mid-range isnāt really defined in the context of how most refer to it with analytics, and we could analyze different ranges for different players, but in general the farther from the rim, the lower the shot % goes down, so the worse the value of that shot is. At least right up until you cross the 3 point line when the value jumps a ton because even with the much lower %, that 1 added point more than makes up for the extra misses (for a decent shooter). I think Bowden never missed in practice, and Barnes used to run stuff for him just to try to ignite that āshooterā in him, get the ball to go through the net kind of thing. Confidence, like you said. Plus he was a good enough shooter anyway that there wasnāt a ton of value drop off, some yes, but apparently acceptable. Also with a big man, heās much more likely to be open when shooting a midrange shot, so if that increases his shot % enough, then it may make it a more valuable shot, but most likely just a less bad shot. Big coming out too can often draw the other teamās best rebounder out, so thereās lots of hidden value added with a big that can make that shot consistently that might not correlate to a guard. Not lost in all this is while Iām as numbers driven and nerdy as anyone, you canāt just play the game on paper. Launching 3s, getting dunks, and shooting free throws would be the optimal way to score, but opposing team defense will probably try to force you into a jump shot anyway. Scheming and quite often watching plays obviously designed with the end result of having one of our players shoot a mid range jumper is what drove me and I think pdl and some others crazy at times. The thought that if we do everything right on this play, the desired outcome is weāll have given ourselves one of the least valuable shots...that was the hang up. Usually, if youāre a guard and can shoot good mid-range, taking a 3 is the better shot. Bowden was so bad at 3ās last year, that actually wasnāt the case (.86 point value for 3 point attempt vs. .94 for a jump shot). It sort of aligns with Barnesā defensive philosophy. Collapse the paint and take away any of those high % near-rim 2 point shots, and force teams into jump shots (or 3s, which is the part that doesnāt really align). There seems to be no rhyme or reason to Barnesā historical 3 point D (sometimes good, sometimes bad), but his teams are always, always, always good at 2 point d, and Iām sure this is why. Kim English actually tweeted last week or so about the strategy of trying to lure opponents with bad 3 point shooters into taking open 3s, but thatās hard to keep track of for college students I think. But that would be THE optimal d strategy....defend without fouling, make the opponent take 3ās only with their bad shooters, and then force them into mid range jump shots. Spurs won a ton of championships with that strategy. Sorry for the long rant. Might not be exactly what you were asking, but this is sort of the history behind the disappearance of the mid range game. Great stuff, thanks. And I get the effective FG % aspect of this. One thing that I think is really hard to quantify but would impact this idea some (and you allude to this in your "nutshell" response, which I think is the biggest nutshell I've ever seen, LOL) is that defenses will try to take away those better options. So, particularly for a guy like Santi who may struggle against athletic guards to create open looks for himself and get a good 3 point shot off, the points per attempt will show which shot is the most efficient and productive shot, but it may mask the fact that it's harder for him to get as many of those shots off since a good D plan on him is to take that shot away from him as much as possible. So, yeah, that's what teammates and passing are for of course, but if a team is good enough to be able to shut down the low post offense and still make life hard on the other team's best 3 point shooters, then you may have to take the shots that you can find. Fortunately, that's probably really hard for most teams to do on defense. And if you have 3 real weapons from outside on the court together, plus a credible threat from a couple down low, then you will be very tough to defend. Anyway, this is the kind of stuff I love reading about because I learn so much. There are several other fairly recent basketball statistics that I don't really understand at all. I may google to see if I can find a good list/explanation of the current most relevant basketball statistics.
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